Dan The Road Trip Guy
Join Dan the Road Trip Guy as he explores the adventures, memories, and life lessons of diverse guests from all walks of life. This podcast goes beyond the road to celebrate the journey of life by uncovering stories of passion, resilience, and the pursuit of happiness. Whether you’re a seasoned traveler or simply love a good story, Dan the Road Trip Guy will leave you inspired and ready to embrace your own adventures. Buckle up and enjoy the ride!
I hope you enjoy the episodes. You can find me at https://www.dannyneal.com.
Dan The Road Trip Guy
A Drive With Bill Hayes, Two Introverts Take A Ride
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Join me as I take a ride with Bill Hayes, an environmental attorney and car enthusiast originally from upstate New York. Bill takes us down memory lane with stories of his first car, a 1975 Volkswagen Scirocco, and the adventures it brought him. You won't want to miss his fascinating tales of owning a classic 1972 BMW 3.0 CS, complete with unforgettable modifications. Bill also shares an adrenaline-pumping sea kayaking expedition in Baja, culminating in a pulse-quickening encounter with local authorities.
We then shift gears to explore the future of automotive technology with insights from Bill's career in environmental law. Starting at a firm representing Honda, Bill's passion for cars and environmental issues led him to collaborate with several Japanese automakers recognized for their green ethics. Our discussion spans the rise of electric vehicles (EVs), the practicality of hybrids, and the challenges posed by hydrogen infrastructure. Bill also opens up about his personal dream of kayaking the entire Seneca Lake, a heartfelt tribute to his late father's love for the sport.
In our final stretch, we reminisce about community spirit and the joy of organizing car shows to support a local cause. Bill leaves us with life advice which came directly from his father, who coined the saying, "It is clear up ahead". Bill's stories are filled with camaraderie and laughter. Lastly, Bill shares two of his favorite charities. The Ohio River Foundation and Learning Grove. You can find the Ohio River Foundation at https://ohioriverfdn.org/ and Learning Grove at https://www.learning-grove.org/.
Absolutely nothing beats windshield time, a road trip and good conversation in the car. Welcome to another episode of Dan the Road Trip Guy, where we have entertaining conversations about cars and road trips, life lessons and maybe, every now and then, a little advice. I'm your host, dan Neal Road Trip Extraordinaire, and now buckle. Now and then, a little advice. I'm your host, dan Neal Road Trip Extraordinaire, and now buckle up and enjoy the show. I am in the car tonight for this episode. I have not had anybody ride along with me in probably a year, so I'm really excited to do this. It's a beautiful Thursday evening in Cincinnati. It's a bit warm, but my guest today is Bill Hayes, and Bill and I have known each other for a long time. We lived in the same neighborhood for years. We both love cars. We were both talking before we got in the car that we're both introverts and we're like uh-oh, what are we going to talk about? I'm excited to talk with Bill on this trip, and welcome to the show, bill. Thanks, appreciate it.
Speaker 2:You're a very good driver too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm so glad you're here. Kick this off with. Why don't you take a warm-up lap or elevator ride up the elevator. Take a couple minutes and just tell my listeners who is Bill Hayes.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, I'm originally from the Finger Lakes in upstate New York, on the north end of Seneca Lake. On the south end is Watkins Glen and I think that's where I got the bug for cars. Originally I'm an environmental attorney, do a lot of automotive work for Japanese automakers and I've been in Terrace Park for, I think, 17 years now or so.
Speaker 1:All right, so this is Dan, the road trip guy, and I always start out with what was your first car?
Speaker 2:I still am on the internet looking for that to get it back. It was a 1975 Volkswagen Scirocco, silver, second owner. The first owner was a guy who worked for Kodak in Rochester, new York, and the hood and the roof had these little dots on it from the stacks at the Kodak factory that no matter what you did you couldn't get them off. But that was a wonderful car, you know. It's basically a VW Rabbit in a different body.
Speaker 1:Absolutely A very racy looking body.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really liked it. It was manual, so you didn't have a lot of friends asking to borrow your car because they didn't know how to drive a manual, absolutely Four-speed. Four-speed, am radio.
Speaker 1:And what year did you buy that? When did you start driving?
Speaker 2:that was 1978 so and then? Sold it when went to college at denison, yeah, so only had it a year, a year and a half any fun trips in that car mainly just around upstate new york, to visit people who were, you know, graduated before me and who were in college and so forth up to st law, lawrence and a few other places.
Speaker 1:When I met you, you had a really fun BMW, a classic. Yeah, tell me about that a little bit, where you got that.
Speaker 2:Sure, that was a 1972 BMW 3.0 CS. Bmw had to call it E9. And I got it from a mechanic, a guy who ran a shop in Northern California. He had gotten it for his daughter and what was nice about that is I wanted a manual and I was having a lot of trouble finding a manual and in talking to him that was an automatic and he had a 5-speed from a 5, from a five series there, and so he said he could put that in it. He also had put the fuel injection from the five series in it, as well as the, the brakes. Yeah. So it really had some nice upgrades but was still, you know, essentially original in every other way.
Speaker 2:Just it wasn't carbureted anymore and had some nice bigger brakes and fuel injection. So I had that shipped out and we had that for quite a while and it was, you know, a victim of kids going to college. But we had always planned it that way, so sold it to actually someone in my building who was looking for a classic BMW, and we just happened to have a conversation and so I still have a connection to it of sorts.
Speaker 1:That's good.
Speaker 2:So yeah, that was a great car that drove like a new car, it was amazing. So it was a nice grand tour.
Speaker 1:If you hung on to it, it probably paid for two college educations today.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, we did make a nice little profit on it. That took the sting out of selling it because it took care of a couple semesters of college.
Speaker 1:There you go. Good investment. Tell me about an epic road trip you've taken in your life, one that just stands out to you.
Speaker 2:So there's a lot of good road trips. I think one that I will never forget because I don't think I would ever do it in today's day and age was a sea kayaking trip down about 500 miles down into Baja with a friend of mine. This was the first year I'd done this trip with my brother, Tom, and then the second year was doing it with a friend of Wells, Coalfleet. On the way down we had a flat tire right before we came across a roadblock by what they call Federals. These guys looked like they had gone to big lots and got their uniforms. They were all mixed. You know the bandoliers of cartridges across their soldiers, just like something you'd see from a cartoon. Well, they surrounded our car. They're yelling at us, they asked me for our papers and you're supposed to have a tourist visa if you go past like Ensenada.
Speaker 2:I think it is is, but we didn't bother, we didn't want to stop. So they're yelling for the papers. So I thought I was smart, so I gave them the rental car papers. That was a mistake, yeah. Next thing you know, we're out of the car. They're making us empty literally everything out of the car, all our gear, all our kayaking gear, food for the trip, everything. And we just acted stupid, which wasn't hard because we were stupid. They were probably just looking for a bribe, right. And in the meantime Wells went to work fixing the flat tire and a lot of activity there and they eventually just like got bored with us, I think and let us go.
Speaker 2:What was funny is, after that trip and you spend about a week just self-supported out among these islands in the sea of cortez, we get back and this isn't like you know cabo, where there's, you know, rock and roll restaurants this is like a fishing village you're in where, if you aren't paying attention, a donkey's going to eat your food right off the table.
Speaker 2:But on the way back we had the military jumped out in the road and stopped us, and so the same thing. We just like they were obviously just doing a drill of some sort and they didn't search us. We just kept saying no, comprende. But yeah, that was like on the way down and on the way up getting sort of stopped in the middle of the desert by heavily armed people. You know, that sort of sticks in my mind.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that would stay in your mind, right? What year was that?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, that had to be 15 years ago. Okay, Trying to date it by the age of my kids. Actually, it was probably a little more than that. You know what it would be? It would be Cooper's. It would probably be 25 years ago or so.
Speaker 1:Time kind of flies when you get to be our age right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but you read about now some of the things that happen when you're going down to Baja through the middle of Baja and Peninsula and then some of these isolated areas. I don't know that I'd be comfortable camping like we did on the way down, just on the beach and so forth. Yeah, A little smarter now probably.
Speaker 1:A little wiser, that's right. You mentioned you're an environmental attorney. That's right. Did you always?
Speaker 2:want to be an attorney when you were growing up no, I thought I'd be an architect until I realized there's a lot of math involved. Okay, um, that's probably a lot of computers. But I was at denison and was involved in some environmental programs as a political science major and realized how can I get into environmental issues with not a real science? Right?
Speaker 1:What else can I do, yeah?
Speaker 2:And so I went to law school for the sole reason to practice environmental law and worked for Ohio EPA for five years and then went into private practice. Okay, and why Denison La Crosse? Probably and also it's just a beautiful school. The admissions director who I first met when I was a sophomore in high school just passed away, but it says a lot about Denison, because I was just stopping there with my dad on the way to visit my brother at the University of Dayton and we were looking at schools on the way down.
Speaker 1:Kenyon and.
Speaker 2:Denison. Okay, we walked in and just said, hey, you got a map, we're just here to look around. And I said, well, hold on a second, you know. And the woman went and got the director of admissions and he said I want to talk to him, you know. And so my father and I are walking in there. He's like no, I just want to talk to Bill. So I'm terrified.
Speaker 2:Like we're talking about being an introvert, a sophomore in high school, you know, talking to him he found out he was interested in lacrosse. So he called the lacrosse coach. There was a game that day my dad and I had planned to go to and the lacrosse goes. Hey, have him come up after the game and introduce himself. So now, like you know, that's double trouble for an introvert. Now I've got to go up and meet the coach after a game. Well, tommy Thompson was a wonderful coach and he got my dad and I in his golf cart and drove us back to his office after that game and we sat there and talked to him for the longest time and, yeah, he's a wonderful man. I just fell in love with Dennis in springtime, great school and then how approachable everybody was there, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then where did you go to law school?
Speaker 2:Capitol and Columbus. Okay, when it was in a different building now it used to be down on High Street I sort of looked at that as a necessary evil.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It wasn't the same as undergrad.
Speaker 1:Any work you've done that you can speak about. That is something you're very proud of. I was fortunate.
Speaker 2:When I went into private practice, the firm I was with represented Honda. Their environmental attorney was taking a non-legal position and they needed someone to fill that in. So I actually for a number of years split my time between my law firm and Honda. I have a desk up there where the Honda whites and so forth, and that a sort of a long relationship with that company Really was able to build my practice around automotive. So now I represent several Japanese automakers nationally and do their environmental work Really. Very lucky that that occurred, because A being a gearhead, two to love an environmental law issues and right things.
Speaker 2:And then you know, being able to work with automotive companies nice thing with japanese too. They they have a real strong environmental ethic, like if you're required to do 10, they're going to do 12. Okay, and they plan well in advance and so it's. It's really been, really been fun in that sense yeah, you're a car guy.
Speaker 1:You work in the car industry being an attorney. What do you think about the evs?
Speaker 2:I don't think the nation is 100 ready for everybody, but I will tell you that's where. That's where it's going to go. All the companies are planning for it. So take the politics and the sound bites and everything else and just put them aside, because it's going to be what the companies forecast. So the media likes to jump on the fact that, uh-oh, ev sales are down. Well, ev sales are down, but that's the way we're moving. I think there's a transition period. I think hybrids will have a really, really important role to play. You know, with the plug-in hybrids, I don't think hydrogen's going to go anywhere anytime soon.
Speaker 1:Okay, no, you don't think that, I just don't?
Speaker 2:We already struggle with EV infrastructure, so the hydrogen infrastructure is like makes your head spin, but you know that's down the road. You have some of these auto manufacturers already working with hydrogen for their trucks and their shipping and so forth like that. So you're a very good driver. You didn't hit that woman who decided to walk.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she just kind of walked over in the middle of a pretty major road here in cincinnati it's only four lanes yeah, it's four with a turn lane in the middle, you know.
Speaker 2:So all that frogger you played.
Speaker 1:It's worked out really well. So back to the ev. You think we're five years away from it being yeah you know you take um rosanna and I.
Speaker 2:We we travel a lot where we have a child in vermont and a child in utah. Okay, and I'm from upstate new york, it's already long drives and it's right now. It's not completely practical to say we're going to do that in an ev, unless you're willing to say we're going to add significantly to what might already be in Vermont a 14-hour drive or Utah a 24-hour drive. But that's for those type of trips. We are constantly talking about having one for what we do in Cincinnati. It totally makes sense for just the driving that you do around town. We'll get there. Now I say that, but we've got a bunch of old cars in our driveway too.
Speaker 1:Well, sure Got to have old cars. Yeah, Just in case you can't charge one up right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right, or the grid goes down, I'm going to be safe.
Speaker 1:Although I did have to buy of course we're riding around in a BMW and they like 93 octane Right. So it was 489 this morning. Wow, I was like huh, wow, maybe that electric's not so bad.
Speaker 2:Well, that's right. So, like Alfa Romeo came out with their small SUV, the Tonali or something, Right. I think their range is, on electric, something like 30, 35 miles. Okay, so that's a to and from work. Yeah Easy, you could go the whole week without having to pay for gas. Yeah, one twist where we are in Ohio is that you know some of the power a fair amount of the power on the grid is coming from coal-fired power plants.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So you know you factor that in also, but that's going to evolve over time. Also, we're not going to see too many of those after 2030, 2035. Yeah, All right. What's on your bucket?
Speaker 1:list Vehicle-wise. No, like life, life. What do you want to do? I mean, you've done a lot, I've seen you. What?
Speaker 2:would I like to do. I'm pretty content. I wouldn't mind having a place on a lake in Vermont or upstate New York. That would be my bucket list. Okay, somewhere close to a school ski area and fly fishing, kayaking wouldn't be so bad, but I'm pretty content.
Speaker 1:Okay, well, that's good.
Speaker 2:Maybe you need to work on it, put some on there. That's what I tell people yeah.
Speaker 1:You don't want to climb Mount Everest.
Speaker 2:No, you know there is a. So my father was a kayaker, okay, and Seneca Lake, where I grew up, is 35 miles long, about three, three and a half miles wide, and he would kayak every single morning and through the winter, unless it was white caps, you know, and he passed away in 2020, in his 80s, but he, just he had his routine and his kayaking, but he just he had his routine in his kayaking. So I would like to kayak that entire lake. You know, circum do the whole lake, you know, and that's been something I've been looking at and would like to do within the next year or so, okay, so there, yeah, it'd be a mix of camping and maybe hit Watkins Glen.
Speaker 2:You stay somewhere. I'm not so sure. I do it off-season, so you don't have as many people on the lake. You can probably crash on somebody's beach on their cottage and they wouldn't be there, right, if they're in New York City or somewhere. Yeah, that's something I've thought about quite a bit. He was a car guy, for sure, so you should do that, yeah I remember you play hockey, I do you still play hockey yeah, yeah, now did you start playing when you were young?
Speaker 2:yeah, in fact my dad, we, we had a small pond in our backyard. I'd call it almost a low-lying area. It would freeze every winter and we'd play there. And then we came home from school once when we were kids and my dad's out there with a buddy with a bulldozer and they dug out a rink it had. He ran lights up through the trees, he had a bench, we had regulation goals and everything and that was our life growing up. In the winter, my mom and my mom would turn the lights off to get us to come back in at night and we'd just keep playing. But yeah, it's like when people talk about backyard drinks. We really had the ultimate. It was probably a way for them I'm one of four boys. It's probably the way for them to keep us around the house.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, my semi-claim to fame is that Steve Carell, the actor. He was a goalie for Denison on our hockey team there. Oh really, yeah, yeah, it's everyone that's played hockey at Denison. That's the claim to fame.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I doubt.
Speaker 2:Steve Carell would know who. I am.
Speaker 1:You never know yeah.
Speaker 2:He does support the team. We have a really nice alumni program too. Okay, but still playing at the Indian Hill Winter Club.
Speaker 1:I might go down a league every couple of years Eventually there might not be any more league, but for me it's kind of like Linda and I were watching CBS Sunday Morning and there was a lady on there. She was in her 90s and she was doing the decathlon. Now it's not an official thing, but it sort of was an official thing. She was the only one in her age group over 90. That's pretty impressive yeah and she did it all. And to watch her throw a shot, put and a discus, a javelin, and then she high jumped, it was like wow.
Speaker 2:When I lived in Columbus, I played in a league at OSU and there was Judge Gilley, an older judge. He's almost in his 60s, he's playing. And now you're going wow, wow, man, I play with a bunch of guys. It's funny.
Speaker 1:Linda and I just went and saw Chicago and Earth, Wind and Fire Did you, and three members in each group are the originals. Wow, and most of them are 80 plus. That's crazy, and they were still. I mean, it was like holy smokes.
Speaker 2:Well, you wonder about Mick Jagger sometimes. Yeah, he's 81.
Speaker 1:It's like he's well preserved. You're well preserved. Yeah, good word. If you could take a road trip with anyone, living or deceased, who would it be? Where would you go? What would you drive?
Speaker 2:So that's. There'd be a long list of people. Sure, Roseanne and I travel really well together, but I think if you're saying living or deceased, it would be with my father. Again, I got my master's from Vermont Law School and I wasn't going to go to graduation and he ended up saying, yeah, let's go to graduation. So I had an M3 at the time so we drove up there.
Speaker 2:I picked him up at geneva, new york, and we drove up, you know, through the adirondacks and through vermont and that m3 and he had spent his summers in vermont growing up. So he's pointing out all sorts of stuff that was. It was really great. He he's like this is where my, when we lived in Oneida, this is where my parents would drop me off, next to the train tracks where I'd hold a sign saying Charlotte, vermont, and the train would literally stop and pick me up.
Speaker 2:You know he had great stories. He really liked being back there and I'll tell you he has a saying. He had a saying that I use all the time and I have friends that use it now also that we would do these trips to the Adirondacks, canoe trips, total backcountry trips, when we were young, before you had all the high-tech gear you have now. You'd have this cotton sleeping bag with the pheasants in it and the tarps for your tents, but, um, it would inevitably rain every single trip. Like in rain, like black sky rain, and we'd be driving up there with the kudus on the car and he would just always say looks clear up ahead.
Speaker 2:and and it's sort of a saying of life now we say like when you're just like in the mix of something that's miserable, it's like looks clear up ahead good, it's good, right, yeah yeah and um, I have friends that use it now too, and um, I think he'd be the one that I'd have you have a good time doing a road trip with, and also, because he's a car guy, yeah, or bob, you're there you go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you can talk hockey for a while, right? Yeah, I probably I'm not a hockey guy. He was a hockey guy, right?
Speaker 2:oh yeah I probably wouldn't be able to talk. Probably be so, like you know yeah, you know how you have a hero, some sports hero, when you're a little kid sure yeah, that, that he is definitely the one I don't know when we met.
Speaker 1:We met years ago but then all of a sudden there was a group of us that decided we need to have a car show. We planned and had car shows in our neighborhood to support the volunteer fire department.
Speaker 2:And I don't know. We did like four of those.
Speaker 1:I think I think there were four of them. Yeah, and had upwards of 100 cars.
Speaker 2:And really, really good cars. Yeah, I mean had gt40s, m1, bmw, m1, and then we. What was nice, though, is you know, john magerd has a gt6, you know that hasn't run for years, and and trailered that there, right. But we had boats too. Oh, that's right. I forgot about the boats, boats, motorcycles, mopeds. In fact, my son Cooper won an award which I think his friends just stuffed the ballot box. He had a 1972 Z50, honda Z50 Mini. That's right, I remember that. Yeah, I think that was the original stealing, the election type thing they stuffed the box out of that one.
Speaker 1:Oh, that was fun. We had a lot of fun doing that. Yeah, it was really good.
Speaker 2:And then one year the fire department used the Jaws of Life as a vehicle.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, demonstration.
Speaker 2:We had food trucks.
Speaker 1:This is kind of pre-food truck days. I was thinking about it today I was thinking I wonder when Cars and Coffee started.
Speaker 2:We might have been ahead of our time. Cutting edge, that's right, that's us. No, what do they call it? Thought leaders, we?
Speaker 1:were thought leaders. Yes, there you go.
Speaker 2:Those were really good in the mix of cars. I remember we got the. It was a British car club Also had a bunch of cars they brought. Yeah, A lot of.
Speaker 1:TR6s yeah.
Speaker 2:And then, of course, we had a family here that had some racing Porsche cars.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was pretty nice.
Speaker 2:That was kind of cool. There was a Woody one year. That was just beautiful. Now you're bringing back all these memories of the cars. Some were photographs of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I found some. I need to get them all in one place and share them with you guys.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we'll have to do that again. Yeah, Terrace Park Motor. Classic and then we raffled off a vehicle.
Speaker 1:Two cars? Yeah, didn't we, didn't? We raffle off a Saab one year, we raffled off a Saab convertible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the winners of that ended up. I'm not sure they were comfortable with the manual. And then I brokered that to a friend who had drove it for years. He just sold it. Oh wow, david Brittingham had that for a long time.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, he did.
Speaker 2:And then you had the 320i.
Speaker 1:The 320i, which we kind of wish. I had it back. Same here.
Speaker 2:I remember buying the steering wheel from you because it was an old Gator wheel. I wish I had that still, but I've always wondered where that ended up.
Speaker 1:I know, you know, yeah, I don't know, it was nice.
Speaker 2:That was a nice car.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Should have, could have, would have kept that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was the Gibson's Saab convertible.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's right, it was their mother's, so it was like a one-family vehicle. That was nice An 86, I think it was yeah. Yeah, we might have to do that again. I think the planning was as fun as the event it was.
Speaker 1:I'm sure the raffle was illegal.
Speaker 2:Oh, without a doubt. I also think the beer sales were. Maybe on the third year. Actually, I think I still have. I might still have the permit for the last year that we had beer. Yeah, but yeah, I'm not sure. I think we researched the raffle and just decided that was a lot of work and just let's just do the raffle.
Speaker 1:It's like you know, we might get our hands slapped yeah we got around, I think in part by the winner. Then it was just a private transaction between the winner and yeah, donator, hey, the money went to a great cost, it did yeah, I think emergency services had fun with it too. That passed the boot you know, yeah, but but there's a whole hey, there's a lot of golf carts here in the neighborhood. Now, do you?
Speaker 2:have one of those. I do not.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:I always think about getting one of those Cushman industrial carts and driving them around there. As the contrarian, I think you should.
Speaker 1:Alright, if you could leave my listeners with just a little bit of advice, life advice. What would you tell them?
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to invoke my father's saying. It's like you know, it looks clear up ahead. No matter what situation you're in, just remember it will be clear up ahead, and I've used that in many instances where I didn't know if it was going to be clear up ahead, and with medical stuff my wife and I have had. It just works out. So keep a positive attitude and drive carefully.
Speaker 1:Great advice. Well, bill, your dad sounds like a really neat guy and somebody I would have enjoyed having a little road trip conversation with, any idea what his first car was.
Speaker 2:Well, it's funny, you say that because it's sitting in my garage.
Speaker 1:Really yeah.
Speaker 2:So it's a funny story because it was old when he got it, but it's a 1920 Model T pickup and he was working on a farm in Trumansburg, new York, just outside of Ithaca, when he was in high school and it was sitting in a barn and so he talked the farmer into buying it, I think for 200 bucks. Oh, wow Figure it was an old car then, because he was born in the thirties and graduated from it.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm so glad you came along on this ride. Two introverts in a car.
Speaker 2:That might be the name of a new podcast, and it's just silent for half hour.
Speaker 1:We're just riding around, so I really appreciate you taking the time.
Speaker 2:I appreciate you not hitting that woman that crossed four lanes, because that could have just changed the whole demeanor.
Speaker 1:It could have really messed things up big time. I always ask my guests is there something you want to give a shout-out to a charity? I'm sure you don't meet any clients in your law practice.
Speaker 2:I'll give a shout-out to two organizations. One is the Ohio River Foundation. It has the name Ohio River Foundation, but it really protects the whole watershed in this region, okay, and their effort on conservation and restoration but, most importantly, on education, is really, really great, and I would just like suggest that you look at their website, okay. And then the other one is Learning Grove.
Speaker 2:So those are just two websites to look at Okay, and then the other one is Learning Grove. So those are just two websites to look at, okay, and two great organizations doing good things. Yeah, so, and thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Thanks for that. Yeah, until we meet up again, you can find me on the internet at dantheroadtripguycom. I hope you will follow this podcast so that you don't miss any upcoming episodes and share it with your family and friends so they can enjoy the stories of my guests also. Until we meet again on a future episode, keep having conversations with each other and keep driving.
